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This is Max Miller speaking from Los Angeles.

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The date is September 14, 1957, and before this microphone we have Robert C. Gardner,

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a Francisco lecturer of note on the Flying Saucer MiG-Mup.

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Mr. Gardner is the first question in this interview.

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I wonder if you would care to tell us just what you think flying saucers are.

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Well, I think the flying saucers is a catch-all term to cover all of the unidentified flying

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objects phenomena or UFO, as it's been recently referred to.

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And being a catch-all term, flying saucers cover the rather complex situation.

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That is to say, many people think of flying saucers in the sense that they're always thinking

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of a disc-shaped or a round-shaped aircraft.

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However, this is only one of many different types of airfoils or designs that have been

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observed in the sky by rather credible observers.

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So I think it's very important to emphasize the fact that flying saucers is a catch-all

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term to cover many different types of objects seen flying in our skies and having been seen

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by some rather expert and credible observers.

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Do you feel qualified to research into these phenomena?

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Well, yes.

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On two or three counts.

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One, I am a graduate of an Air Force school.

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I was trained in aircraft identification construction and I was in the Air Force in the last war.

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On the second point, I feel that I was or am somewhat qualified on the basis of at least

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of an intense interest.

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I first read Major Teal's book back in his first book called Flying Saucers Areal, back

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in the latter part of 1949.

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I did make at least one good sighting on my own and these things re-stimulated my interest

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and I think a genuine enthusiasm and interest helped the person to be qualified because

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if you're sincerely and intensely interested in the subject, I think you're doing the best

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that you can on the level of your training to search out facts of the matter.

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Well, how extensively might I ask if you investigated these subjects?

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I have tried to track down what I consider to be credible reports.

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However, it sometimes turns out that these things are mistaken identifications of one

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kind or another, but I have traveled throughout the United States and Europe, interviewed

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officials, Air Force and airline pilots both in the United States and Europe have corresponded

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widely on the subject and I feel that it's about as extensive and intense as just one

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person during a private investigation could do.

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Now you mentioned that you were excited about flying Saucers Areal several years ago, which

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you care to describe at all.

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We were on a picnic one afternoon south of San Francisco on a place called Skyline Boulevard,

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that's your new word.

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No, there were six others on a picnic.

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There were three couples.

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Yes.

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And there was about 4.30 in the afternoon, the sun was at our back and there were two

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of these objects came out of the north, flying in a subtly direction and since the sun was

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at our back and we were looking toward the east, we were not blinded and we had excellent

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observation conditions.

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The weather was clear and one of them kept right on going in the south-south east direction

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and was soon out of sight in the other one.

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Now, hovered, I would say, a matter of a few thousand feet from us, that's the most, that

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is, at the greatest distance it was not more than a few thousand feet away, and hovered

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for a few seconds and then in a tremendous burst of speed it was gone out of sight in

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a few seconds to the south.

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That must have been quite interesting.

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Yes, it was a rather surprising thing to me because one of the girls in the party said,

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oh, there go a couple flying saucers and I thought, we've got to get a clue.

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And she said, no, look up there.

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So I did think that she was serious at that point and sure enough I had my first and I

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would say probably my only real good sighting.

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Because they look metallic, physical objects.

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They look physical, but they didn't, they weren't necessarily metallic, they had a definite

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outline.

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It would rather be hard to be certain whether they were metallic or not.

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Was there anything in the local newspaper that you looked about this sighting?

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Yes, and I called the open air filter center and they said that they had a few other reports

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about that same time.

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Oh, really?

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Yeah.

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So I got more or less the confirmation to that extent.

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I wonder if this sighting intensified your interest in the subject of UFOs.

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Well, yes, it certainly was.

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It's been really stimulated.

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Although I had been interested, you see that was in August of 1952, that is my sighting.

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And I had been interested since 49.

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Yes, but it certainly stimulated more activity, I can imagine.

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In your research, you must have studied some of the Air Force reports on these phenomena.

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Now I wonder if you can tell us if you believe the Air Force is hiding facts from the public.

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If their reports are contradictory to you as so many other researchers and authors seem

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to feel, and if so, you might indicate why you think these reports are so contradictory.

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I, in the first place, definitely do believe that they are hiding at least some of the

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facts.

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I think that part of the contradictory reports are due to the fact that the PIO officer,

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that is the public information officer, that any definite or particular area have not checked

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out their release with the Pentagon in Washington.

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And therefore the Pentagon will issue a statement later on.

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Upon further investigation and study, et cetera, et cetera, we find that such and such is the

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case, and they usually play down the thing quite considerably.

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Yes, I see.

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Do you know if there are any definite orders instigated by the Air Force to prohibit the

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Air Force pilots, airline pilots, and general military personnel from revealing any sightings

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they may make to the press or public?

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We guess, aren't there some official statements on that?

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You probably could give them a more verbatim word as to what those restrictions are.

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I know there aren't such, particularly thinking of AFR or Air Force Regulations 200-2.

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I would take it that your opinion might be in accordance with mine, that this regulation

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is probably an extreme and is definitely has been instigated to its whole certain facts.

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I think it should be rescinded.

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Might I ask if you concur likewise?

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Yes, I certainly feel that naturally being here to get more information, it should be

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resurgent.

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I wonder if you might care to opine as to just why the government is keeping these data

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secret.

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Oh, I think there is a combination of reasons.

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For instance, I was in the Pentagon in Washington and I was interviewed, if you want to call

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it that, by several officers there, an Air Force intelligence.

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I was impressed by the fact that even though they were all wearing the same uniform, they

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did not all think alike.

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Yes, and I felt definitely that some felt that the information should be more generally

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released, however they were under orders, as to what to say.

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A general approach, namely that the flying saucers did not exist.

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They spent several hours trying to convince me that flying saucers didn't exist.

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They did that, and my reaction was, gentlemen, there is too much protestation here.

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They don't exist, so what?

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They don't exist.

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But why go all the time?

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That is because they don't exist.

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An excellent point.

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But one interesting thing was that at the end of several hours they were trying to convince

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me of this.

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One of the officers spoke up and said, well, Mr. Gardner, one of the reasons we have an

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Air Force is to defend freedom of speech.

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Amen to that.

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And while you were at the Pentagon, I wonder if you attempted to see any of the Air Force's

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official files of their investigation of UFO phenomena.

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Yes, I did attempt to do that, but Chop was the famous PIO man at the time.

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Is this Albert Enchop?

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Yes, that's right.

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And the funny thing I had known about Al Chop and Ben Acajul's friend of his for many years

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before he was in this official position.

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Yes.

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In fact, his closest friend lived in our house for a number of years.

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Is that right?

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Yes.

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And he was the one who gave me sort of an inside crack there.

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And I said, come on Al, don't kid me after all.

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I mean, we're friends here.

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But of course he had an official job to perform there, namely to deny the existence of these

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things.

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And so anything that I was given at that time, I was quite impressed with the fact that it

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was nothing new.

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And I was also impressed with the fact that they had a lot of information.

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And Mr. Chop may have been very innocent at the time.

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He may not have known that this other information existed.

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Therefore he was being sincere and convincing because he didn't know any difference.

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Yes.

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Well, I think that Al Chop is more recently, at least subsequent to his retirement from

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the Air Force.

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But he has stated that flying saucers aren't all probability interplanetary, more or less

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confirming your own PCs along this line to a certain degree anyway.

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I wonder if you can tell me if you believe the Air Force or whether or not you believe

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the Air Force will ultimately reveal its files and findings from these phenomena.

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Well, I have stuck my neck out a little bit in the past.

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The first magazine article I wrote on the subject, which appeared in 1933, I stated that I thought

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that the Air Force would be the information I had at that time.

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But being subsequently disappointed in more than one occasion, I am now of the opinion

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that since they kept the atomic bomb secret until they were very much ready to release

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the information, I think the same thing will be done with the saucer situation.

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And I think it will be quite some time.

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I really believe that they will not release anything to tell Air Force to by something

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that possibly occurs.

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Because I think that as far as interplanetary saucers go, there are many things that they

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do not know about the situation themselves.

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For example, those in the higher echelons who are in the know hear about a certain UFO

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report where jets are vectored to pursue.

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Now the men in the know, of course, realize the possibility that there are many things

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that we don't know about these things.

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And it could be at least in some cases rather dangerous.

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And it could, as General Chibla told me in a long interview at the Air Force base when

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he was Continental Defense Commander, he said that we have lost many officers, pilots and

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planes as he put it, trying to intercept the UFO.

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That's amazing.

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That's quite a statement.

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And I did not reveal it publicly until after his retirement.

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Yes.

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Even at the time, he did not say that I couldn't repeat it, but I respected his position until

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after he did retire.

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Now would you care to tell me approximately when this interview took place?

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Yes, it took place in March of 1953.

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1953?

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Yeah, that's unusually interesting.

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Was that the net Air Force base?

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And Air Force base, ENT, Colorado Springs.

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I see.

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And to progress a more controversial facet of this research, I wonder if you would care

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to tell us what you think of the many little men stories, the crashed saucer stories, especially

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those prevalent around Europe and South America in 1953, or rather in 1954 and 1955, also those

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expanded by Frank Scully in his book Behind the Flying Saucers.

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Well, to answer the last part of the question, first I would say that Frank Scully in the

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first place is a swell fellow, and did the very best that he could at the time in which

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he wrote his book, The Behind the Flying Saucers.

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A JP Kahn, a reporter at the San Francisco Chronicle, told me in a private interview that

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here Frank Scully wrote the book called Behind the Flying Saucers.

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He was going to try to write an expose and call it Behind Frank Scully.

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Now I think that a character assassination attempt was made there.

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I don't think it was completely successful at all.

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He certainly did not assassinate a lot of the facts.

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Yeah, Frank Scully had a mass there.

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I think it was a question of possibly getting a little misinformation mixed up with some real good

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information, and then they tried to discredit the whole thing.

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Well, along the general line of landings and little men and whatnot, what do you think of

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these many compact stories that have arisen in the past, though three or four years?

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Well, I think that possibly they seem to be so persistent and that people seem to be so sincere.

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I am forced to believe that some of them must have some basis in truth, as just to which ones

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and how extensive or how much these stories were elaborated on.

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You know how it is.

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When we have an experience, we might get a little over-enthusiastic and as the story goes on,

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it gets better and better.

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As to what actually originally happened, I don't know.

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I do feel that there have been some genuine contacts, however.

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Well, that's the most objective comment, I feel, and switching to a more objective side

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of Flying Topics as well.

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Are you, well, are your opinions generally in accord with those of Major Donald D. Kehoe

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as expressed in his many talks and in his last three books on the Flying Topics?

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Well, I will say this.

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As far as he goes, I would say that my opinions are very much in accord with Donald Kehoe.

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I talked with him several times when I was in Washington.

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He lives in Arlington, Virginia.

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And we met together a few times and had some chats.

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And I think he's done an excellent job.

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I think his books are as well documented as any that I know.

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And, certainly, would be a credible addition to any library on the subject.

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Yes, I see.

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Well, you recommend him fairly highly then.

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I would say so.

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Major Kehoe, of course, believes the Flying Topics have an origin outside of his planet.

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That is, extraterrestrially, there is a research chemist in White Plains, New York,

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who has gone into this phenomenon, he says, for several years.

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And he has come to the conclusion that they are manufactured right here on Earth.

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That is, by the United States or Russia.

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I think he says the United States.

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Now, do you concur with this latter theory?

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Yes.

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I firmly believe this.

233
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And I think if given enough time and an impartial group of people, I could actually prove it.

234
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:27,440
In fact, I have a serial number of one of our crafts that crashed in Cermsey Bay near Baytown, Texas.

235
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,440
I have the information that was taken off of that flying saucer.

236
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,440
Besides that, I have other information, which I think is overwhelming.

237
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:39,440
At that particular time, we had our saucer aircraft, among others.

238
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,440
There were two that were referred to as the Lark and the Loon.

239
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:49,440
And then, of course, at the end of the war, the Russians, unfortunately, I say unfortunately,

240
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,440
because I think we should have taken over the German rocket base at Pinnum und Ease.

241
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:59,440
Nevertheless, they not only took over the rockets there, but they also took over a circular disc-shaped aircraft

242
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:06,440
which the Germans had almost gotten into the air, which they designated as model number A4.

243
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,440
This craft was rather remarkable.

244
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:14,440
It would fly a minimum of 1,500 miles an hour and could rise vertically into the air.

245
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:15,440
Yes.

246
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,440
The Russians took off from that point and developed their own flying saucer.

247
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:20,440
I see.

248
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:25,440
So I think the mass sightings that have been made by the Swedish and Norwegian airline and Air Force pilots

249
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:31,440
from Russian-occupied territory and Russian territory itself are largely of Russian origin.

250
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:36,440
But you feel, then, that both major world powers, the United States and Russia,

251
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,440
have developed these types of aircraft.

252
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:39,440
And the British, too.

253
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:40,440
And the British.

254
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:41,440
Yes.

255
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,440
Both the United States Air Force and Navy Air Force, the British Air Force and the Russian Air Force,

256
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:53,440
all have rather relatively advanced disc-shaped flying aircraft, both piloted and remotely controlled.

257
00:16:53,440 --> 00:17:00,440
Virtually all researchers into these phenomena believe that reports of flying saucers or UFOs

258
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:06,440
have been reported from all countries of this planet, at least all three countries.

259
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:12,440
With this in mind, you believe that any world power would be willing to exhibit a fallible,

260
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:17,440
and of course anything Earth-made would be fallible, such a fallible secret weapon,

261
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,440
such a top secret device before alien eyes.

262
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:28,440
Because there is always the possibility that such a device could be either captured or it could on its own crash,

263
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:34,440
be destroyed, or in some fashion or other divulge the secret, at least the mode of operation

264
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,440
or mode of propulsion, as the case may be.

265
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,440
I think they would be willing to gamble at yes.

266
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:44,440
I do feel that they would be willing to gamble it because the stakes are pretty high.

267
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:51,440
And as a matter of fact, perhaps you have heard of that one that was supposed to crash the Russian saucer.

268
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:57,440
It was supposed to crash North of Pittsburgh in Norway, and they claimed that they found the Russian symbols on the control panels.

269
00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,440
Yes, as a matter of fact, I have.

270
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:09,440
Although the last data I read on that was in Bob Gribble's APRG reporter, and this was, oh, I think, four or five months ago.

271
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:18,440
And he quoted an article, and I believe it was from a Norwegian newspaper, of course, that it would naturally be about the most authoritative.

272
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:23,440
However, I have tried to have the data confirmed, and this has not been done.

273
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:28,440
It is difficult to say why. This report may have been a hoax, or it may not have been.

274
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:46,440
Nevertheless, this story or incident in this newspaper indicated, perhaps it was the magazine, that the saucer, or UFO, did crash and was found and was examined by Norwegian and other countries, Air Force officers.

275
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:58,440
However, it contradicted the earlier statement that Russian symbols, etc., had been found, and it gave every connotation that this object or artifact was non-terrestrial.

276
00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:10,440
That is, there were perhaps some symbols, etc., found in it or on it, were undesirable, or perhaps some metallic substance could not be analyzed.

277
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,440
There was found to be unavailable on this planet. I don't remember right now.

278
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:25,440
However, I don't think this could be validly used to argue the case in either way, because it is unconfirmed, as I said previously.

279
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:33,440
Sometimes these things are a little bit difficult to be positively certain of. We can only say that there are indications along that line.

280
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:34,440
Yes.

281
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,440
I would take it then that you do not believe that flying saucers are interplanetary. Is it correct?

282
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:51,440
No, that's not correct. No, this is not correct, Max. The situation is that I feel we have two major sources, terrestrial and extraterrestrial.

283
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:52,440
Oh.

284
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,440
Then both of those sources break down into two subcategories.

285
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:57,440
Yes.

286
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:16,440
One are the ones that I mentioned, the United States Air Force, Navy Air Force, British Air Force and Russian Air Force, and then certain flying objects from very little known and remote hidden areas, land areas where the white man has seldom set foot.

287
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:17,440
Yes.

288
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:22,440
This is a little mentioned source, but I think a very important source of this phenomena.

289
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:39,440
Then the extraterrestrial phenomena break down into two major categories, namely the very solid third dimensional origin and then the more nebulous or fourth dimensional or what the Air Force chooses to call the outer phase aspect of physical reality.

290
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:40,440
Yes.

291
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:52,440
But you would, I would take it then from what you stand that you believe that the sighting reports coming from various parts of the world have predominantly stemmed from these terrestrial-made created aircraft.

292
00:20:52,440 --> 00:21:00,440
I think that, I would put it this way, that a major portion of the disc shaped aircraft scene has been of a very earthly origin.

293
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:01,440
Yes.

294
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:11,440
There seems to be a certain line that we can draw and say well beyond that certain types of aircraft definitely have the flavor of the interplanetary class.

295
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:12,440
I see.

296
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:26,440
Well, running along here, which reference to the non-terrestrial objects or flying softwares or UFOs, do you believe that these particular craft have a hostile or friendly intent to their motives?

297
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:40,440
Well, now in most all of the cases that I've ever been able to check down thoroughly by first checking the reputation of the people making the reports and then investigating the reports and analyzing what they have reported,

298
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:59,440
I feel that in most all of these cases the USO, that is the unidentified flying object or flying saucer has tried, has attempted to take an evasive action and get away from any conflict or attack or anything that would be classified as offensive.

299
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:00,440
Yes.

300
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,440
I think this is almost invariably true.

301
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:07,440
So generally speaking I could say that they certainly show a friendly intent.

302
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:21,440
But besides that point there have been cases of where our craft have been, well, I feel maybe we could go as strong as to say they're actually shot down or disabled.

303
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:22,440
Oh really?

304
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,440
Whether they've had to defend themselves in order to get away or something.

305
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:26,440
Yes.

306
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:34,440
Would you care to give an opinion as to where these objects may originate from, that is any particular planet or outside of this building?

307
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:41,440
Well, since we have such as I had mentioned in the earlier part of our discussion here that we have such a variety of shapes and sizes.

308
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:42,440
Yes.

309
00:22:42,440 --> 00:23:01,440
I think it's logical to assume, even though we have a lot of varieties of shapes and sizes of our own aircraft on the planet Earth, I do think that the variety in shapes and sizes and the fact that these things have been seen for many, many decades indicate that they could be coming both from our solar system and from outside our solar system.

310
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,440
I think that's a very different way of saying both Mars and a distant star system.

311
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:06,440
That's right.

312
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,440
I feel that's distinctly possible.

313
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:18,440
Well, I noticed that you found that these reports, as we all know, have come in a variety of shapes and sizes and colors and everything else.

314
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:34,440
Starting that fact for a minute, do you believe that there are any segments of a sizing, say, or along that line that could be classified into any pattern or patterns or colors, sizes, shapes that are outside of the general cigar or just shaped craft?

315
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:47,440
I think, as I had mentioned earlier in the discussion too, I said that these take such a wide variety that I think it would be difficult to say that there were a pattern of any shapes and sizes or colors.

316
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,440
It seems to be so varied.

317
00:23:49,440 --> 00:24:01,440
As Major General James Sanford Chief of Air Force Intelligence has put it, he said that there has been no pattern, as he worded it, I think, no pattern of any threat.

318
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,440
Oh, that could be United States.

319
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,440
No pattern of any threat, yet, underlined.

320
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:14,440
I wonder if you would care to relate any particularly dramatic or conclusive UFO sizing that you have found in your researches.

321
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,440
Oh, I think it would be difficult to limit that to any one case.

322
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:31,440
I think there have been some rather dramatic and certainly exciting and unusual reports for an example to give you an idea of a little drama and action at the same time.

323
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:45,440
Not too long ago, there were a flight of six Navy jet fighters over the general Hawaiian Island archipelago, that is the Hawaiian Island area, and a routine training flight there.

324
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:53,440
The report comes from a Navy commander, I'll not mention his name, who knew some of the boys that were involved in this.

325
00:24:53,440 --> 00:25:17,440
He said that six flying saucers, perhaps maybe, coincidentally, perhaps not coincidentally, perhaps more significantly, six flying saucers came down out of the sky at a higher, from a higher elevation, and each one of the saucers picked out an individual Navy jet fighter, and they flew right on their wingtips for quite a little distance.

326
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:37,440
And after a short distance, they apparently deliberately tilled it over sideways in their flying so that their top, this bubble or dome shaped top, was very easily visible, say their distance are not more than 30 feet, which is extremely close, of course.

327
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:50,440
And the boys were able to land their planes after this experience, and that's just about all because they said that the occupants of these clans were so frightening that they'll almost be on description.

328
00:25:50,440 --> 00:26:12,440
Now, I still say that it's possible that these were space suits or pressure-erised suits of some kind, which gave this grotesque appearance because, you know, our own space and high altitude flying suits are rather grotesque in appearance, and they may not have seen the real occupants of the saucers, they may have only seen what was covering them up.

329
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:38,440
Well, that's a dramatic UFO report, all right, and by dressing here, I note that in a recent Trendex National Survey, it indicated that approximately 25.3% of the public, at least those queried, indicated their belief that UFOs could, and could, of course, is emphasized here, that UFOs could originate from outside of this planet.

330
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:50,440
Was this Trendex report made? It was made, let me see, as of this recording. It was made about three weeks ago, or sometime around the middle or late of August.

331
00:26:50,440 --> 00:27:01,440
In several cities, was it? It was released out of New York. Yes, it was made. It was a national survey. How extensive it was, I don't know. It was published in the Indianapolis Star.

332
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:19,440
I think about, let's see, as I recall, about 25% of the public stands that they didn't know, or didn't opionate to whether or not they were flying saucers were real or not, and about 51% or so percent indicated they thought UFOs were either non-existent,

333
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:42,440
hallucinations, misidentifications of weather balloons, or some type of craft made right here in our planet, as you earlier indicated. But I was wondering, from your lecture series around the country, particularly here on the West Coast, would you say that interest in flying saucers has been increasing or decreasing over the past five years?

334
00:27:42,440 --> 00:28:01,440
Well, it's a strange thing. I frankly think that the press services have not picked up reports as much as they used to because I think they considered old hats in many cases. On the other hand, I think as far as the public goes, there is greater interest today than there ever has been before.

335
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:11,440
And not only that, I think there are as many or more sightings today than ever before. I think they're just generally receiving less attention, probably.

336
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:27,440
Well, I imagine that's rather true, particularly in regard with this earlier mention, Turnbecks report. Now, going along here, do you believe that there are many frogs or ant or crampocks in the field of research?

337
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:49,440
Well, now that's an interesting question. I feel that most all of the people are sincere. I do feel that some people let their imagination and their enthusiasm carry them into a realm where, to other people, they might seem a crackpot.

338
00:28:49,440 --> 00:29:09,440
If they had a little more control or their enthusiasm, perhaps, in their sincerity, might not give this appearance. But from an impartial standpoint, I suppose that you could say that there were certainly these types of individuals. However, I think even those individuals in most cases are sincere, but they're just a little carried away.

339
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:18,440
I wonder if you have interviewed any other noted personages or authorities in this or other fields besides General Benjamin Chidlon, Major Donald Keyhoe?

340
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:26,440
Well, I was a guest of Arthur Clark, the President of the British Interplanetary Society in his home in London.

341
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:50,440
We had a long way into the night discussion. And you may know that within the last few weeks, his latest book has been out. And it's quite interesting. He has been rather objective in this whole subject. And, of course, he's quite a prominent person.

342
00:29:51,440 --> 00:30:02,440
He has written many books on the subject. He's recognized services. He would certainly be classified as an interesting personality that I've had a long talk with about the matter.

343
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:12,440
Oh, there have been many national newscasters, which who have interviewed me on their news programs. And we've talked privately both before and after the broadcast.

344
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:27,440
Other, you might say, lesser government officials, that is majors in kernels and various branches of the Air Force. Of course, having been in the Air Force myself, having lived on top of Air Technical Intelligence Command at Dayton, Ohio for 25 years,

345
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:45,440
I sometimes had a, you might say, a pipeline in there, which was a rather fortunate connection, to say the least. So that that and other authors of various books and other lecturers, of course, have been, take, for example, Gerald Heard.

346
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:56,440
Well, yeah, I wrote the book as Another World Watching and then subsequently had another sequel out to that, which was expanded a little more, added two to bring it up to date.

347
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:57,440
Yeah.

348
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,440
You can roll along those lines. It's very steeple.

349
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:10,440
Well, I believe that you've probably made more radio and TV appearances and interviews, etc., than any other flying saucer personalities that I know.

350
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,440
Well, have you any idea just how many of these appearances you have made?

351
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:26,440
Well, Max, I tried to keep track of it and when it got over a hundred, I sort of lost count. I have been on coast to coast, hooked up several times, both on radio and television.

352
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:35,440
And as you know, early last spring here in Los Angeles, I was on television and radio 21 times in 10 days.

353
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:45,440
Yeah. So that's at the pretty fast pace. As a matter of fact, the mixed in between lectures and showing my motion picture and so forth, it keeps you up.

354
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:54,440
Begressing for a moment, back to the contact stories, you indicated at least partial and qualified beliefs in some of these accounts.

355
00:31:54,440 --> 00:32:05,440
I was wondering if you feel that we may eventually affect a worldwide or universal contact. In other words, a meeting of the world.

356
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:16,440
I believe that this will come about. It's always hard when you go ahead in time. It's always hard to say when. Nobody can say when, really.

357
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:22,440
There have been a lot of prophecies and forecasts and so forth, some accurate and some not so accurate.

358
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:32,440
But I do believe that eventually we can look forward to more contact, which will be much more in the open and presently we have here.

359
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,440
Do you feel this will be affected gradually?

360
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:44,440
I think it will be affected gradually. However, I think when it begins generally that it will accelerate more or less rapidly.

361
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:59,440
In other words, it may be gradual for a period of years now, but I think definitely in our time there will be a point reached where this thing will accelerate considerably in its importance and in actual contact.

362
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:05,440
Would you care to hazard a guess as to just why these UFOs are visiting the planet at this time?

363
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:15,440
Well, I think we covered the ground earlier in this discussion since they could be from both the solar system and outside of the solar system.

364
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,440
As far as them being here is concerned, I think it's pertinent to inter-punitary varieties.

365
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:27,440
I think they are looking us over from the standpoint of many interesting observations.

366
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:38,440
One, quite a fairer, of course, that we have detonated many hydrogen and atomic explosions, and we have toyed with cobalt and so forth, and we're getting into more unstable elements.

367
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:54,440
I feel it's quite possible that many of these planetary observers have gone through this stage of development many, many eons ago, or at least quite some time ago, and they're interested to see how we are handling the situation as we come on it.

368
00:33:54,440 --> 00:34:02,440
And then, no doubt, interested to see what we are doing with other things in our advance, the so-called civilization.

369
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:08,440
I think this is probably a prime point of the reason of them being here.

370
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:23,440
Other lesser reasons possibly could be to give us help to neutralize radiation, fall out if they could do so, to be of service in one way or another without directly interfering with the affairs of the planet.

371
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,440
And what do you think is the motive propulsion of these spacecraft?

372
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:45,440
Well, now that's quite an interesting question. It involves, to do it justice, quite some discussion, but to try to encapsulate this and bring it down and convince it, I think we can compare what we might assume would be interplanetary propulsion with what we've done ourselves.

373
00:34:45,440 --> 00:35:11,440
Yes. I personally feel and believe that we have gone through a stage of propeller-driven, round-or-disc shaped aircraft for flying saucers, through jet, through rocket, through atomic, and we are presently flying our latest aircraft on what I think will become to be known as electro-gravitic drives, which many commonly refer to now as anti-grab or anti-gravity devices.

374
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:12,440
Yes, I see.

375
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:28,440
Therefore, I think we can compare and say that foreign saucers, as interplanetary saucers, can be possibly utilizing one or a combination of these methods and possibly using the methods of which we are totally ignorant of.

376
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:34,440
For instance, we had on Earth electricity in clear passage time, but nobody knew it.

377
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:43,440
Yes. We also have anti-gravity devices now, which we have been struggling to master for years, and we've also had that with us for centuries, but we didn't know it.

378
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:44,440
Yes.

379
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:55,440
So I think, likewise, there may be elements of electricity of which we know nothing about now, and of gravitational interplanetary lines of force of which we know nothing about.

380
00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:14,440
And realms of the fourth dimension, since our five senses are strictly limited, which since we have cut-offs in our hearing perception at about 15,000 cycles, we have cut-offs in our visual perception at definite number of angstrom units, and yet we know we can go far beyond that physically, but we can't see it.

381
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:27,440
And therefore, I think we know very little about what the possibilities are. We can only compare the possible propulsion devices with what we've already accomplished here, which I think is strictly limited.

382
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:28,440
Yes.

383
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,440
Totally digressing here, Bob. What are your current plans?

384
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:48,440
Currently, this is, of course, the 14th of September, 1957. I am, in a few days, going directly up to Seattle and up into Vancouver, Canada, and then down to Portland and returning to San Francisco.

385
00:36:48,440 --> 00:37:03,440
So I will come again back down to Los Angeles the first week in November. Then I will return to the San Francisco area for a series of lectures and appearances in the Bay Area, including Sacramento, Oakland, and the General Bay Area.

386
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:04,440
Yes.

387
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:09,440
And then after the first of the year, I will put on a series in Los Angeles.

388
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:10,440
Mm-hmm.

389
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,440
And then later in the year, which comes into spring, we will go east.

390
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:25,440
I imagine quite a number of people, I think, who are interested in contacting you. So I wonder if you can tell us if you are available for lectures and if so, where you may be contacted.

391
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:36,440
Well, yes, Max. I have spoken to various Air Force groups. Incidentally, they've called me, and their commanding officers have called me, and they speak to their officers, pilots, and men.

392
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:46,440
I have spoken to rotary clubs, Kiwanis clubs, and various clubs of that kind. And then flying saucer clubs, of course, been organized for study of this phenomena.

393
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:47,440
Yes.

394
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:58,440
And then, of course, my public lectures, where I show my motion pictures, my flying models, which I have gone into quite more extensively in recent months.

395
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:08,440
I have several of them now. And then I have a few little gadgets to demonstrate anti-gravity drive, or this electrogravity drive, which we've been talking about.

396
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:09,440
Yes.

397
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:22,440
And I will be available for club groups or individual meetings or larger appearances in between these other appearances, because we don't book ourselves solid.

398
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:37,440
We always allow extra open dates, because I want to be able to discuss and carry on these researchers with people who are in groups who are interested by all means, and exchange information.

399
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,440
And you have a motion picture and slides on flying saucer too, right?

400
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:55,440
I have, now presently, I have over a hundred colored slides. I have motion pictures, which have been gotten together and edited, so that the motion pictures run about 30 minutes now.

401
00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:00,440
If I showed my slides all in one night, that would be a program in itself.

402
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:08,440
And actually, it lends itself to quite a variety of phases of the question.

403
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,440
And if you didn't play, well, you might be contacted, if you will.

404
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:22,440
Oh, yes. My home address, where my mail is always forwarded to me, is 1817 Jackson Street.

405
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:30,440
That's 1817 Jackson Street, San Francisco 9, California.

406
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:41,440
And if someone would like to call me long distance, as they often do, I might as well give them the number, if there would be any help.

407
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:52,440
It's prospect5, prospect5 6805, prospect5 6805, and that is at my San Francisco address.

408
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:58,440
That concludes this interview, so thank you very much, Mr. Robert C. Gardner.